Suspect Stealth and Detection information to be incorrect

If trap detection occurred once every six seconds, you'd walk over most traps and if you searched for hidden opponents six times every second, they would need exceptional skill to have a reasonable chance of success.

Actually, it's six times twice per round (or possibly once per second) with this feat, so that makes this rather unlikely.  Although if running, or at sufficient speeds (and a low enough search skill), one could conceivably walk/run over a trap prior to discovering it (I have). As far as steath needed vs. a player with this feat, yes - it does need to be much higher. Raelind (talk) 01:05, September 22, 2018 (UTC)

My introduction was trying to imply the current info seems unlikely. Is six per round your observation or someone else?

It's not mine.  I'm just working with existing statements unless they're proven to be otherwise or are clearly false on the face of things.Raelind (talk) 14:35, September 23, 2018 (UTC)

not Stanley Woo's (but looking at Stanley Woo comments elaborating his proof, I'm sceptical). Just went back over Coolrejects comments from 2009, http://nwnsotu.proboards.com/thread/356/stealth-works and my tests support his 1 or 2 per round for Spot/Listen Ragimund (talk) 06:24, September 22, 2018 (UTC)

This may be true, but take note that your source references NWN souce code, not NWM2.  One or more changes to stealth may have been made between games or after updates (e.g. 1.22 as the OP alludes to). In any case, your re-examining the assertions of how stealth operates is valuable.  If you come up with verification that it operates differently, please let us know.

Anyone know where is this reference/name to the 1.22 update that suggests that Elves get a detection reroll every second. Keen Senses works as Detect Mode for any other Race, just without the movement restriction.Ragimund (talk) 02:46, October 14, 2018 (UTC)

my testing suggests

Keen Sense

Characters with this Feat are innately perceptive and such are always in Detect Mode although without the normal reduction in movement. Actively performing Search, Spot and Listen checks to find hidden creatures and traps. 

Note:

  1. May not disable this Mode. Characters with Keen Senses always receive the benefits of Active Search Mode. Good observation.  I added this
  2. While Spot and Listen checks are normally made twice per round, those with Keen Senses or in Detect Mode will now be always active against hidden attackers.
  3. The ability to stay in Detect Mode whilst in combat has advantage over characters who may need to toggle between modes during combat. Good observation.  I added this

In light of previous contributions stating it's six times per round as of v1.22 of the game, is there any verifiable testing to show otherwise? Raelind (talk) 01:05, September 22, 2018 (UTC)

I cannot support the six per round, it just seems too unlikely in my tests Ragimund (talk) 06:24, September 22, 2018 (UTC)

I understand how the six times per round check was suggested, its how the always active was viewed; as soon as a character uses Hide in Plain Sight they roll against the current DC (Detect Mode) which will still change during the round, just not every second. Compared to a Passive target that will seem like every second.

"Actively performing Search, Spot and Listen checks to find hidden creatures and traps." should really be "Actively performing Listen and Spot checks against hidden creatures" its only improved odds against traps.

I will move the rest of the Stealth verses Detection proposals to their relevant Talk pages

Ragimund (talk) 09:47, September 26, 2018 (UTC) The Keen Sense page is still a mess. As for Stanley Woo's how detection works in NWN, be grateful the rest of it is missing but as it still suggests trap detection is at 5ft (less than unarmed combat range). It's likely the official info, just not valid info and very incorrect. So now, its back to 5 times per second checks again, we must be very gullible.

I'm sure we all have our moments.

How about as what the game manual says "Always Active" which is proven to be correct and not what some bogus post from NWN that starts with, "Ok, I got a PM from fuzzy_shortyking about this" Ragimund (talk) 09:23, November 28, 2019 (UTC)

While the language was less than the formal style we would expect on this site, it looked legitimate to me and you're the only one so far - in the years this wiki has been active - that ever called it "bogus".

I guess Stan's sign off on the post "Do not Taunt Happy Fun Ball" is quite old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmqeZl8OI2M but it sort of matches his intro. Ragimund (talk)

Proposed Description

Keen Sense

Type of feat: Racial

Prerequisite: Elf

Required for: None

Specifics: Characters with this Feat are innately perceptive and such are always in Detect Mode although without the normal reduction in movement. Their Spot and Listen checks will be always active and they will have an enhanced ability to Search for traps.

Use: Automatic

Notes: This feat automatically puts a character in Search mode without the normal movement penalty.


Gameplay: May not disable this Mode.

Characters with Keen Senses always receive the benefits of Active Detect Mode. When Spot and Listen are always active, the Difficulty Check of your detection roll will remain active and unchanged until the next roll. This ensures there are no gaps in detection, that character's with Hide in Plain Sight could exploit.

I've never been sure of that and I'm not the only one.

Raelind, it should be very obvious in game? Trap detection is not 5ft, its 5m. The D&D game is based on characters standing in 5ft squares each, making the adjacent square within 5ft range. That's similiar to the marking circle around normal sized characters, 4 to 5 ft. Now NWN2 tiles are 10m

Here's another page that says 'tiles are in feet.' Suggest look around a bit more. and you can spot a trap halfway into a small room , ie 5m away and not at your feet.

I have done the same and I agree. That does lend support to your argument of meters vs feet. If you're right about the meters vs feet thing, several pages will need to be changed (and that would certainly be OK).

Active detection is just a constant presence, you're not rolling a new check every second.

No new checks every round? Proof?

(Game Manual) Because if that were true, it would make it very difficult to sneak up on anyone in Detect Mode.

Yes, that is a significant advantage of Keen Sense. Other features in the game nerf powerful effects, sometime inadvertently so - immunity to mid effecting spells is an example. It's interesting you don't see that as a possibility here.

Keen Sense is just Detect Mode without movement penalty and always on, thats both the advantages; no toggling detect mode. Ragimund (talk)

It's clear that's your argument; it's not a settled one.

What would be the odds for an extra 5 rolls against 1 stealth check starting with 50%, if it took a round to sneak attack? Hide and move silent need to be pretty high vs someone with keen sense and high spot/listen. You need 30+ detect skill over stealth to be immune to sneak attacks, so you don't really need pretty high stealth skill. Try the odds. and where did secret doors and feint come into this?

Because both are treated as instantaneous actions and only require one check to work.

Neither still have nothing to do with detect mode

Umm... you missed the point.

If you want to see secret doors use True Seeing.

I don't believe True seeing reveals secret doors in NWN2.  Did you find evidence otherwise?

Remember the Library in the OC and maybe read a 3.5e descriptor?

As you know, the descriptor - like many other 3.5e elements - doesn't always translate to the game. My tests of True seeing vs secret doors demonstrates The Library in the OC is an exception only by use of the Caretaker's Veil (probably a script), not the rule.

You need to accept that many of the descriptions are vague and incorrect, maybe by purpose. Ragimund (talk) 06:32, December 16, 2019 (UTC)

Gameplay over time has indeed demonstrated many descriptions to be vague and/or incorrect (this is often communicated in gameplay notes) but incorrect "by purpose"? Where's the proof of that?

I'm sure I said "maybe by purpose" how many examples do you want? '5 feet detection for one seems obvious, your only proof from Stanley has holes in it?

Maybe it's just me, but I doubt you know more about the game than Stanley Woo does.

The fact we still haven't mastered the game since NWN in 2002 and both are still active, suggest's a good strategy.

Ragimund, my answers to your many of your (often snarky) statements, where applicable, are above (as they are here) in italics. I know it's probably too much to ask, but have considered how you say something may be as important as what you say? Raelind (talk) 04:05, December 17, 2019 (UTC)

My comments have been measured, suggest improve your behaviour. What proof do you have for the old descriptors other than they are reposted from NWN? Ragimund (talk) 13:50, December 22, 2019 (UTC)

As I said near the beginning, your statements may be true, but your source references NWN source code, not NWM2.  One or more changes to stealth may have been made between games or after updates (e.g. 1.22 as the OP alludes to). The burden to prove otherwise falls on you, as you're the one trying to change the information that appears here.

https://forum.neverwintervault.org/t/detection/2539

Detection and Keen Sense "Remains a mystery" Looks as the edits on the Keen Sense page hasn't resolved player confusion with the feat and it's associated abilities. Especially when their peers are reinforcing the in game descriptions. Other than trying to make the descriptions on the main page as clear as possible, accurate  and concise. Suggest also not saying later, that the info provided is questionable.  Ragimund (talk) 02:13, February 2, 2020 (UTC)

I never said it was questionable. You did. Therefore, it's worth noting the debate on the title page. Raelind (talk)

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